tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post1604898598226193250..comments2023-11-05T12:59:29.404+02:00Comments on CsĂkszereda musings: BiasAndyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11294221123964774524noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post-40061659779015444542009-01-14T09:59:00.000+02:002009-01-14T09:59:00.000+02:00Broadly I agree (on your last paragraph) though I ...Broadly I agree (on your last paragraph) though I strongly fear that this current war, far from crushing Hamas and those who support it will do nothing of the sort and only serve to strengthen them.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294221123964774524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post-79277764173270701702009-01-14T01:31:00.000+02:002009-01-14T01:31:00.000+02:00Hi Andy. The reason why I described the stories ab...Hi Andy. <BR/><BR/>The reason why I described the stories about hospital arms stocks and suchlike as "reports" is precisely because they're unconfirmed. But they should get at least as much of an airing in the West as the stories coming out of the Gazan end -- not least, because the Israeli media landscape in which they originate is a lively and pluralistic one.<BR/><BR/>I admit my question of why Egypt keeps the Gaza border sealed was slightly rhetorical. It is because it hates Hamas even more than Israel does. Opening the border would legitimise control of Gaza by Hamas, which is originally an offshoot of Egypt's own banned Muslim Brotherhood. (This is precisely why Hamas is so keen on open borders.) Egypt also fears that Israel will ultimately dump Gaza in its lap -- and if you think about it, there is no reason why Gaza should be Israel's business anymore than Egypt's. <BR/><BR/>On a wider point, facts, explanations, and justifications can fly back and forth on the Israel-Palestine question ad vitam aeternam without common ground ever being reached: it is ultimately a matter of emotional identification. I appreciate your general humanism, which I broadly share. <BR/><BR/>However, I think that drawing any sort of moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas is not a luxury I can afford. In Israel, as a liberal atheist homosexual, I could live with my partner, adopt his child, receive an army pension if he died, and generally have a stake and a voice in society. In Gaza, I would be blindfolded, paraded through the streets, and machine-gunned or strung from a lamp post. <BR/><BR/>So for all its flaws (and they are numerous), Israel is ME, while Hamas and the Caliphatic Islamists ranged behind it are out to destroy me and everything I represent. And when they're done with me and the likes of me, they'll move on to the rest of civilised humanity. So if I'm entirely honest, I have to say I want to see Hamas crushed by any means, because -- extrapolating somewhat -- there is no way Hamas and I can co-exist on this planet. Not long-term, in any case. <BR/><BR/>Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post-90206790211392765452009-01-13T22:43:00.000+02:002009-01-13T22:43:00.000+02:00It is tragic what is happening now in Gaza.In CNN,...It is tragic what is happening now in Gaza.<BR/>In CNN, euronews, etc. you see only images from Israel, how could we make un "unbiased opinion"? Seeing just one side of a story is utterly unfair.<BR/>Too many dead people, children...are they Hamas terrorists too? Should the entire nation pay the price? Should they be all punished?<BR/>There are people who, from the comfort of their homes, pretend to be entitled in judging if others should be granted the right to live...they make me vomit! What if it was them, or their families in this situation, isn't God great we are not Palestinians these day?<BR/>Just a human being, a rare specimen todayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post-72769556350594161052009-01-13T21:33:00.000+02:002009-01-13T21:33:00.000+02:00Hi Sato.I am pretty sure that the UN report does i...Hi Sato.<BR/><BR/>I am pretty sure that the UN report does indeed steer clear of unconfirmed reports - it doesn't talk about casualty figures etc.<BR/><BR/>Do you have up to date stats on infant mortality and life expectancy in Gaza. I've found a large number of conflicting ones - the CIA factbook backs you up, but all its figures are "est", while the World Bank suggests that the CIA are some way off. Also, most figures are based on the decline in infant mortality up to the Hamas takeover and subsequent siege. (Maternal mortality was, by the way, at the same time going up year on year)<BR/><BR/>To start with you ask that we steer clear of unconfirmed reports and then go on to treat as gospel the stories of the booby-trapped schools and weapons in the hospital. You can't have it both ways. I have every confidence that if these reports prove to be true that they will be reported by the UN and others.<BR/><BR/>Gaza is still occupied, whether or not the troops were actually stationed in it - come on! If a hostile entity is controlling all access to and from your territory you are occupied (as the UN report makes clear). Italy is not hostile to the Vatican or San Marino. <BR/><BR/>I'd like to know why Egpyt keeps that border closed too - my guess is that it is closed at the "request" of the US and Israel 9and after israel Egypt is the secind largest recipient of US aid, so they have a lot of say in government policy. But, that is just speculation I certainly don't think the Egyptian government is some kind of beacon of light! We can ask questions of Hamas all day. Nowehere have I (or the UN for that matter) condoned any of the actions of Hamas. They're quite obviously a murderous bunch of bastards who have no interest in peace. But then I feel that way about the Israeli govt too They have never shown any serious interest in making peace with the Palestinians (ie by ending the occupation)<BR/><BR/>As for proportionality, well I haven't (I don't think) mentioned it. But when it comes down to it, firing homemade rockets at towns 40kms away is largely a symbolic gesture designed to make people's lives miserable (and with no concern for any potential loss of life at the end). Laying siege to the most crowded place on the planet and subsequently bombing and invading it is guaranteed to cause many many many civilian deaths. Neither act is morally defensible, and I have never tried to do so. But I think we do, in general make a distinction between degrees of killing. All murder is wrong, mass murder is somehow more wrong. I think that's an interesting moral conundrum. is the killing of one innocent person (im)morally equivalent to the killing of 10 or 100? I don't have an answer.<BR/><BR/>I think all of this has to be out in the context of the occupation. As Amos Oz said (I'm paraphrsing because I can't remember the exact quote) "The first and worst crime is the occupation". Everything else stems from that. I would like to see Israelis and Palestinians both be able to have normal lives unafraid of bombs (either dropped or strapped to someone). The only way that this is going to happen is to end the occupation. I do genuinely see my position as pro-Israeli as much as pro-Palestinian because I see it as pro-human. But Israel is the only side that can act to end this (and I don't just mean the current massacre, I mean the 40+ years of constant suffering.)<BR/><BR/>Those who supprt the occupation will call this naive. But it's the only solution. I don't think it would end every attack at a stroke (that would be naive), but it would be the first and biggest and unavoidable step.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294221123964774524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7689571.post-53568519194417426702009-01-13T13:22:00.000+02:002009-01-13T13:22:00.000+02:00The UN in Gaza may not be biased, but I guess you'...The UN in Gaza may not be biased, but I guess you'll agree that any bureaucracy has a vested interest in its own survival, so is sometimes prone to exaggeration. We should also steer clear of unconfirmed reports in general -- remember when the Securitate "killed 40,000 people" in Timisoara in Dec. 1989, splitting open the bellies of pregnant mothers, etc?<BR/><BR/>Re: the "already dire" economic situation in Gaza, etc. How does the UN explain that the infant mortality rate in Gaza is a whole third less than that of relatively prosperous Turkey (less than half the world average, in fact), while average life expectancy is 72 years, on a par with EU members Romania and Bulgaria?<BR/><BR/>I guess the UN also won't comment on the pictures of booby-trapped Gazan schools shown on Israeli TV, nor on reports of Hamas stocking arms under a hospital in Gaza that was refurbished and expanded at great expense by Israel during the occupation. (Which occupation, by the way, no longer exists: Israel has evacuated Gaza. Yes, it controls its airspace and customs, but so does France for Monaco, Italy for the Vatican or San Marino, etc -- this does not equal occupation. And these places aren't ruled by fanatics bent on destroying the larger entity.) <BR/><BR/>Re: the (fairly selective) Israeli blockade, perhaps Egypt should be asked why it keeps its own border with Gaza shut. Or perhaps the question should be raised of why Hamas's tunnels are not used for civilian supplies, instead of Iranian arms (as well all sorts of high-value contraband, such as cigarettes, etc).<BR/><BR/>In terms of access to electricity, perhaps it should be pointed out that much of the world, including some of Africa's emerging economies such as Uganda, live with less electricity than that. In fact, even in the Balkans, Albania often only gets a few hours a day, despite being at peace. Gaza is in the developing world, not in Scandinavia. The fact that Hamas rockets Ashkelon, the city which supplies electricity to Gaza, only adds piquancy to the story. <BR/><BR/>I'm also fascinated by the notion that Israel's riposte should be proportional. Should it refuse to use its military advantage when it's attacked? Should it reply in kind, by chucking rockets across the border indiscriminately, day in, day out for years? Put its 6-year-olds in military fatigues and teach them to hate? Train teenagers to blow themselves up in Gaza, for there is no greater glory than to die while taking out as many Arabs as possible? Should it execute one Palestinian for every Israeli that gets killed by a Hamas rocket? Certainly, that would cause far fewer deaths on the Palestinian side -- but would that be more acceptable? I think not.<BR/><BR/>I'm neither Jewish, not Israeli, nor Muslim, nor Arab, but I'm genuinely curious: what does proportionality mean, in this context? How exactly could Israel act "proportionately?" Salaam.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com